Curse

Voltar · Nov 05, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

thanks for letting us know about the contracts being useful. i generally just save all those things and use them with new characters for bags and crap.

and yeah, not a scam...just normal capitalism. The grocery store doesn't buy food and sell it at the same price they bought it. not scamming. if they agreed to pay 4k for some and put 400g in the trade that would be scamming or if they used something with a similar name or something weird like that.

people tend to use the word "scammer" to mean "people that are smarter than i am".

but again thanks for letting people know there's an extra value in this stack of crap in my storage.

Whiplashr · Nov 05, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

It's no wonder people balk at the term "scam" because (and I guarantee this) a great majority of those who do so are the same people who want to buy things from people for cheaper prices (or sell to people for highly inflated prices), but don't want to be called a scammer, and in fact have rationalized to themselves that they are doing NOTHING WRONG.

Now first off it's not a "scam" per se. But don't kid yourselves people. If you are someone who goes around TRYING to take advantage of ignorant and uniformed people.. you are a person of low moral character. Do not kid yourselves or rationalize that away. Don't give me "it's just a game". That's all just rationalization and spin. If you are setting out to take advantage of others who are not as informed as you, you are (at the very least) a selfish ass who has very little scrupples. That's undeniable (although I'm certain many of you will try).

Blaming the victim is equally reprehensible and also a sign of pure rationalization going on in the head of the perpatrator. You are the one doing something wrong to begin with. Yes, it's stupid to fall for some scams, BUT THAT IN NO WAY MITIGATES THE ACTIONS OF THE PERSON WHO IS TRYING TO SCAM THEM TO BEGIN WITH. They are still moral scum who should be ashamed of their behavior.

Klmpee · Nov 05, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

i always thought this was called merchanting. buy low.. sell high

o wait one second. it is!

Malice Black · Nov 05, 2006, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

It's no wonder people balk at the term "scam" because (and I guarantee this) a great majority of those who do so are the same people who want to buy things from people for cheaper prices (or sell to people for highly inflated prices), but don't want to be called a scammer, and in fact have rationalized to themselves that they are doing NOTHING WRONG.

Thats called business. Every food item you ever consumed was purchased at a lower price then sold on to you (the consumer) for a highly inflated price. No profit is the death of every business.

Quote:

Now first off it's not a "scam" per se. But don't kid yourselves people. If you are someone who goes around TRYING to take advantage of ignorant and uniformed people.. you are a person of low moral character. Do not kid yourselves or rationalize that away. Don't give me "it's just a game". That's all just rationalization and spin. If you are setting out to take advantage of others who are not as informed as you, you are (at the very least) a selfish ass who has very little scrupples. That's undeniable (although I'm certain many of you will try).

Who are you to judge anyones moral characther?

The only thing not rational is you.

Swearing and abuse just void that statement period.

Quote:

Blaming the victim is equally reprehensible and also a sign of pure rationalization going on in the head of the perpatrator. You are the one doing something wrong to begin with. Yes, it's stupid to fall for some scams, BUT THAT IN NO WAY MITIGATES THE ACTIONS OF THE PERSON WHO IS TRYING TO SCAM THEM TO BEGIN WITH. They are still moral scum who should be ashamed of their behavior.

There is nothing wrong with what is being done. There is not set price for any item in this game so people are well within their rights to try and purchase anything for any price.

Moral scum? seriously you need to lighten up on these wild accusations you are throwing around.

Edit: Why send an abusive PM then put me on ignore? very childish.

Narutoscryed · Nov 05, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

Thats called business. Every food item you ever consumed was purchased at a lower price then sold on to you (the consumer) for a highly inflated price. No profit is the death of every business.

Who are you to judge anyones moral characther?

The only thing not rational is you.

Swearing and abuse just void that statement period.

There is nothing wrong with what is being done. There is not set price for any item in this game so people are well within their rights to try and purchase anything for any price.

Moral scum? seriously you need to lighten up on these wild accusations you are throwing around.

Edit: Why send an abusive PM then put me on ignore? very childish.

very true.. thanks for that great statement..

the only thing that i can view as a scam is someone promising somthing for a price.. then not delivering it once that price is payed...

people say that we sellers or buyers should consider the opposite parties lack of knowlege before making a trade.. but that is simply absurd.. im no babysetter.. its not my problem if you have an item and want to sell it.. but dont know the true price

if you want 10k for a req 8 crystalline then HELL im gonna give it to ya.. how the hell am i a scammer for that?

arcanemacabre · Nov 05, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narutoscryed

people say that we sellers or buyers should consider the opposite parties lack of knowlege before making a trade.. but that is simply absurd.. im no babysetter.. its not my problem if you have an item and want to sell it.. but dont know the true price

if you want 10k for a req 8 crystalline then HELL im gonna give it to ya.. how the hell am i a scammer for that?

OK, let me set something straight here so that no one else gets confused over this matter, or any other matter involving commendations or whatever.

In this game, there are two different types of items: Items that have 'true worth', and items that have 'buyer's worth'. In other words: collector drops, materials, dyes, commendations/trade contracts, etc. have a 'true worth', or an actual hard amount that an NPC will pay for the item, or in the case of commendations/trade contracts, an amount of gold the item you trade them in for is worth.

The buyer's worth is everything else that is worth only what other people are willing to buy it for, since the NPC traders (for whatever reason via developers) only pay a small amount for an obviously good item. These are things like the crystalline mentioned in the post above - and carry no relevance what-so-ever to the issue at hand.

So, these 'true worth' items have a very concrete set amount of worth to them. There is a mid-point leeway worth to these items, as in, usually what you can sell these items to the NPC is less than what you can buy them for from that same NPC. So generally, in trade with other players, a set agreed upon amount somewhere in-between is the going rate. You can see this very readily in Ecto, where if the trader sells them for 8k, and buys them for 7k, they're actually worth, in trade, about 7.5k, or in-between.

This is the most honest and reasonable way to handle these types of items. Sure, you could take that Ecto, which is worth to the community as a whole 7.5k, and attempt to sell it for 10k, or buy it for 3k. You would, however, be laughed at, scoffed at, insulted, and would never be able to sell it (or buy it) for that much (or that little - most likely), but nothing's stopping you from trying.

This is exactly what's going on here. These trade contracts have very real worth. It's equal to (for the community's sake) what the rubies/sapphires/diamonds sell for divided by 7, the amount of required contracts. The same should hold true here - if you try to sell the contracts for much more, or try to buy them for much less, there should be outrage of some kind from the community.

The only difference is knowledge. That's it. This is where the declaration of "scam" comes in. If you try to buy or sell Ecto for anything other than it's worth to the community, it won't work because everyone with Ecto or who wants Ecto most likely knows exactly what it's worth, and there's no shortage of people who also know and won't speak up in the presence of price manipulation. Trade Contracts are a different story because this is a new game.

These people are straight up taking advantage of lack of knowledge. They're also counting on everyone else in their district not knowing anything, so no one will speak up. If someone does, they can simply go to another district, or another town. This happens a lot. This is what a predator does, not a business man/woman. They filter out the weak and the ignorant to fool them out of their potential money. If that isn't a scam, then it's at least just as morally wrong as one.

So Zinger, good job. The more who know, the more who can speak up for the unknowing. They should award us Lightbringer points for this.

Mordakai · Nov 05, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

I blame Anet for these type of scams.

And yes, it is a scam, just like people who offer 100g for Black Dye in pre-searing Ascalon, because newbies think (correctly) well 100 > 1g, so it's a good deal, not knowing Black dye is worth over 6,000 gold. (example, current price may vary).

Whenever a seller is using ignorance to his/her advantage, it is a scam, no matter how these other people try to frame it.

If you know an items "real" worth, offer it. Otherwise, you are scamming, and no "capitalism" defense will save you!

Malice Black · Nov 05, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

The dyes real value is 1g anything over that is pure profit. The amount of profit you make is down to knowledge.

We all got ripped as noobs, the noobs then mature and do it to the newest batch of recruits..its a never ending circle but everyone who is clever enough gets their own back.

Halmyr · Nov 05, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

I think it really depends on the situation: These, lets call them unfair trades for now, can be one repeatable, like dye's in pre-searing, monastery credit and such, is a scam I believe, why, your taking a fast adavantage on new player and player that are mal informe, your taking advantage of mass ignorance. These unfair trades can be done repeatable in minutes in some case. these append often and can often be viewed.

the other kind of unfair trades are those with unfair trades conserning gold item are perfectly legitamate, why? because this time the seller did not take the time to find out the price of a single pricey itemm your taking advantage of the moment. these are close accident that dont append very often.

But in the end, how would you feel that you find what those trade contract are really worth after you sell them, pretty bad eh. "Dont do to others what you would not like others would do to you."

Malice Black · Nov 05, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

But in the end, how would you feel that you find what those trade contract are really worth after you sell them, pretty bad eh. "Dont do to others what you would not like others would do to you."

I would have swore at myself then thought nothing more of it. Just like any law states ignorance is not an excuse. The means of getting values is available to all those that bother to look..research is your friend.

arcanemacabre · Nov 05, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

I would have swore at myself then thought nothing more of it. Just like any law states ignorance is not an excuse. The means of getting values is available to all those that bother to look..research is your friend.

That still doesn't invalidate it as a scam. Take the gold-instead-of-plat scam (that Anet has finally squashed). If you know about it, and you know to pay attention to the total offered (bothered to look), then you'll not get scammed. As you say, research is your friend. Does it make either a viable money-making tactic versus a slimy, evil scam?

Malice Black · Nov 05, 2006, 07:11 AM // 07:11

I'm undecided on the whole swap plat for gold thing..on one hand it is rather lame and weak on the other hand people should pay more attention...at the end of the day it's not something I'd ever do or something I'd ever fall for.

I'm a realist I trade in real life and things like this just don't bother me. I've pulled fast ones in my time thats why I'm worth a fair bit of cash.

Something I live by "Life isn't fair, those that play fair lose" in the cut throat of real life trading morals only stand in your way. Money is everything in a vain and capitalist world.

arcanemacabre · Nov 05, 2006, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

I'm a realist I trade in real life and things like this just don't bother me. I've pulled fast ones in my time thats why I'm worth a fair bit of cash.

Something I live by "Life isn't fair, those that play fair lose" in the cut throat of real life trading morals only stand in your way. Money is everything in a vain and capitalist world.

A bit off topic, but my life philosophy is realist, as well. But, it's more along the lines of "You only live once". Carpe Diem, and all that. I'd rather not fret and stress over petty wordly wealth, that of which you cannot take with you after death. If you can make people happy by treating them well, they will generally return the kindness, making your journey through life a much more enjoyable experience.

To each their own, though. Another good philosophy.

Kha · Nov 05, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

There's a new scam going around in the Kodash Bazaar about the Trade Contracts (and as you all know, I've been in the Kodash Bazaar too long.

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

This thread will get locked for the same reason: No venting.

It's not scamming, just clever enterprenuership.

(about imperial commendations in this thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10058376 )

Be consistent. The other thread was closed for talking about the same thing, just different items.

And to those like Mordakai that still try to argue that this is the same as buying dye from new players in Pre-Searing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

No, it is not the same. Not even close. The thing with dye in pre-searing is that it's the game's fault that there is no true way for new players to determine the worth of the dye other than going by other players' word. They can't see its value at the dye trader because there is no trader, so they can only go by how much a merchant is going to buy it.

With Imperial Commendations and what not, you can easily find out how much it is worth by seeing what you can get with the items from the guardsmen. If people are too lazy to figure out this price on their own (which is really not that hard to do), then they are not getting scammed but rather just letting other players dictate how much they should sell things for.

And in both cases one can research this stuff on fansite forums and websites. Not everyone may know of this way, but it really doesn't take a genius to figure out that there would be websites discussing game information.

This thread should be closed. The discussion has taken place before, and that thread was closed. Nothing new is happening, just people saying the same thing over and over. Let people play and learn things the hard way if they can't put 2 + 2 together quick enough.

Kula · Nov 05, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

To me, this sounds more like sly, sneaky trading going on that involves the "informed" and the "uninformed". Guess who will always have the upper hand?

Anytime someone willingly sells an item, of which its real value is unbeknownst to them, it is a risk that they are taking since they didn't take the time to find out its real worth in the first place.

There will always be people that try to take advantage of others online or IRL. My personal view of this behavior is that I do not agree with the abuse of these "sneaky" trade tactics to rake in gold at the expense of other players, but there's not much that can be done about it except maybe being a more astute trader or sharing incidents like these with others. At any rate, thanks to the OP for the heads up.